WACO, Tex. — Battles for acceptance by gay and lesbian students have erupted in the places that expect it the least: the scores of Bible colleges and evangelical Christian universities that, in their founding beliefs, see homosexuality as a sin.
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- Public Discussion (7)
This is not a reason for the Christian to arise in anger. But it is indeed sadness. I understand a country that rejects God who from it's founding was almost universally accepted and revered. Paul tells us in the book of Romans, chapter one, that:
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
But the huge question I have is that individually, many of these have not rejected Jesus Christ...have not rejected God. So why is God so non-discriminating in the application of the above? I know that the atheists will say "Because God is not", and the gays will say "Because it isn't true". I am really trying hard to understand this, because there are certain bedrock, unchangeable truths for which I would gladly give my life rather than deny. One is that God is, and another is that He is merciful and good.
So, this is cause for concern. I am not gay, and I do believe homosexual sex to be wickedness. But there's another thought:
What if God's judgment on a nation was on all it's people, and perhaps where the Christian fits in is that we have failed miserably in living lives that honor God OURSELVES, but neither have we lived the kind of lives that cause our voices to be heard in heaven, to move the hand of God so that He will heal this land...and the people in it. The failures of our high profile, megalomanic leaders have brought dishonor to God, and the screaming, frothing, foaming at the mouth Christian who denounces gays on the courthouse steps has done nothing but to further alienate those for whom Jesus died.
How dare we think ourselves saved, and apart from the children who now find themselves saddled with a contradiction of all they believe. What if God has linked our spiritual success to the fall of our society... a society for whom we were to be the "salt of the earth" and a "light set on a hill that cannot be hidden"... and we now must deal with the fact that many of our Christian youth are finding assistance and acceptance outside of the family of faith in a lifestyle that God has clearly told us in every way, is wickedness.
Perhaps some good old-fashioned repentance is in order. Daniel, that righteous friend of God, highly esteemed, fasted and prayed for three weeks when he determined the end of the 70 year exile was approaching. Did he repent of his own sins? Yes, but he also repented for the whole nation of Israel, interceding for them. And how could he do this, knowing God would hear him? He had led a faithful, humble, life, so that God's messenger called him "highly esteemed". Perhaps we need to rethink how we do this walk with God, and form it according to His values, and not what we think are His values.
- 3 votes
The United States of America
The United Sodoms of Gomorrah
This is nothing more than an agenda, which may change the minds of man to accept and welcome people that defines their existence by their sexual practices, but will have no bearing on God's judgment. One could go through the scriptures and find many passages that condemn this kind of behavior and none that supports it.
And before anyone thinks that I'm being hateful and/or condescending; understand this, I fully subscribe to Isaiah's statement: "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags."
Genesis 19 - Leviticus 20 - Romans 1 - Revelation 18:4 - etc...
- 1 vote
smbelow, 1 Corinthians 5:9-13. How does this apply to homsexual lifestyles of Christians? Accordingly, they are to be removed from the church. I go to the cause and effect, because this is a dynamic that cannot be denied. In the household of faith, how is it that the children are so cursed. Is there no distinction between those who walk with God and those who do not? I know there are those who would say that a gay person can walk with God, and I would say that the righteousness of God tells me "NO!" but His mercy and the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross tells me "Mercy covers a multitude of sins". But then John in 1 John tells us clearly that the one born of the Spirit cannot continue in a lifestyle of sin. Is the gay person to be celibate for their whole life, if they wish to walk with God?
But even moreso, we must ask ourselves what is our response to this. Is it hatred of the gay? Is it condemnation? Is it open acceptance? Is it sticking our proverbial heads on the proverbial sand? Each one of us must choose, and in our walk with God, understand that Jesus said, "My sheep know My voice...". But do we count our lucky stars, like a newborn baby has all it's fingers and toes, that we now also consider our children perfect if they aren't gay as well?
The sins of Sodom and Gomorrah have long been linked to sexual perversion, however that is not the truth. Sexual perversion was only a part of the whole. Isaiah tells us that Sodom "lived in luxury and cared not for the poor."
10Hear the word of the LORD,
You rulers of Sodom;
Give ear to the instruction of our God,
You people of Gomorrah.
(This is figurative, referring to Israel, but in the usage of this figurative speech, God is comparing Israel to S & G, and found the alike.)
11"What are your multiplied sacrifices to Me?"
Says the LORD.
"I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams
And the fat of fed cattle;
And I take no pleasure in the blood of bulls, lambs or goats.
12"When you come to appear before Me,
Who requires of you this trampling of My courts?
13"Bring your worthless offerings no longer,
Incense is an abomination to Me
New moon and sabbath, the calling of assemblies--
I cannot endure iniquity and the solemn assembly.
14"I hate your new moon festivals and your appointed feasts,
They have become a burden to Me;
I am weary of bearing them.
15"So when you spread out your hands in prayer,
I will hide My eyes from you;
Yes, even though you multiply prayers,
I will not listen
Your hands are covered with blood.
16"Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean;
Remove the evil of your deeds from My sight
Cease to do evil,
17Learn to do good;
Seek justice,
Reprove the ruthless,
Defend the orphan,
Plead for the widow.
This is just one passage that describes the sins of Sodom and Gomorrah. It was much more than homosexuality.
- 2 votes
That's all great IF you accept scriptural legitimacy, but for those of us who don't, it's a non-issue so long as it doesn't interfere with basic human rights (marriage, employment, adoption, etc.). When it does interfere, there indeed needs to be an agenda to ensure equal rights to all, whether you consider them "wicked" or not. The U.S. could learn a lot from western Europe in this regard.
And what about those who do not accept Scriptural legitimacy, such as you but find the gay lifestyle wrong and immoral??? There are plenty of people out here who feel this way. What about them and where do their opinions fit into all of this???
I see plenty of Believer bashing when it comes to gay rights. Has it ever occurred to any bashers that there are many Believers that support gay rights but Believers get no support in return. Only more bashing.
If a person subscribes to a certain lifestyle or belief, why would they want to become a part of a learning institution or anything that is contrary to their own principles??? In other words, if I'm against a gay lifestyle, would I participate in a gay parade??? If I'm a democrat, would i attend a tea party rally??? If I'm an atheist, would I join a Church??? If I support "buy American", would I drive a Maserati???
In other words, if I'm gay, why would I attend a Christian college and if I came to the "realization" that I was gay after already attending this school, why wouldn't I transfer out to another institution of higher learning where my lifestyle was accepted??? People transfer in and out of schools every day for a cornucopia of reasons.
Just a few questions to this situation that I just don't get.
- 1 vote
@razorsteven,
I understand that for those who order their lives by Biblical directives and wisdom, the issue of God's laws and righteousness is always at the center, or should be. There are abuses and hypocrites, but we're talking the true Christians, who actually walk the talk.
I also understand that there are those who do not recognize Biblical legitimacy, and for them, their consideration is that gay rights are a civil issue, not a religious (I hate that word!) one.
For me, I would have to agree that gay marriage, civil unions, etc, the whole thing, is indeed a civil matter, and not a "religious" one. However, we must ask ourselves. What comes first, the belief or the deed? Do we not act out of our beliefs? So we who believe that the gay lifestyle is a wicked lifestyle, do not want such persons engaged in that lifestyle to be viewed as normal and acceptable, and there are many reasons for this.
- We must, from the heart, honor God by what we hold to be true, noble and right.
- We do not want our children to be taught that homosexuality is an acceptable lifestyle choice.
However, on the other hand:
- Our very own book, the Bible, in Paul's letter to the Corinthians (1 Co. 5:9-13) tells us:
9I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; 10I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. 11But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler--not even to eat with such a one. 12For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? 13But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.
(the words in bold include a gay lifestyle as being under the heading of "immoral person")
Ah, but these children raised in Christian families attending Bible college, are they the "wicked man"? Should they not be cast out of the family of God?
Here's what I garner from the whole controversy. We Christians seriously need to rethink our attitudes concering sin, prayer, and the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross. Sin is not a light thing, for the life that treats sin as a light thing is a life that God does not honor, nor does He listen to their prayers. If we want our voice heard in heaven, we must put away doing evil, and stop justifying and excusing ourselves.
If Christians believe that there is to be any fix for this dilemma, it needs to begin with us, and our walking in the truth.
- 1 vote
Have any of you actually spoken to a gay Christian?
Perhaps the reason they choose to stay in the Christian college after they have discovered their sexuality is because that discovery does not change their belief in Christ as their Savior HOWEVER it does make them realize that certain current biblical interpretations and doctrines about human sexuality are not relevant and THEY are living proof! Perhaps they want this truth to be known. I guess its like how Galileo felt or how I felt when I began to study Geology and realized the Noah's Global Flood story was a myth. Do you reject your ENTIRE faith wholesale? Do you reject the entire bible wholesale because you discover it cannot be taken literally or applied scientifically and ethically on all its claims?
Or do you find a way to reconcile the two?
I have spoken to gay Christians who have had to reconcile their undisputed truth (they did not choose to be gay, they cannot pray it away and all respected scientific research on the matter shows it is perfectly natural) vs. what their Christian indoctrination taught them.
I think the REAL reason there is conflict is because the reconciliation gay Christians make with their sexuality and their faith involve looking at their bible, their beliefs in a new light and usually it is a more Christ-like light with much less legalism and literalism, just as Christ himself was a radical rule-bender. This opens up debate about many things.
The establishment on the other-hand does not want that debate. They assert that ONLY their interpretation, exegesis, doctrinal conclusions are correct and it is a CLOSED CASE!
But is it really closed? Is there no debate whatsoever on this matter and at a institution of higher learning, among adults, of all places? Is EVERYONE an infant in their faith?
Seems to me from its inception that Christianity was rife with debate. In Paul's time it was about whether Gentiles could be accepted without circumcision. Slavery, women's rights and then evolution was the hot topic of debate in the 18th, 19th and 20th Centuries.
In our time, its homsexuality and just like back then, BOTH sides can argue from the same book, just as when both the first womens rights activits and those opposed or the anti-slavery and pro-slavery argued from the same book.
History so far has been on the side of those who wish to include and extend greater human rights freedom and scientific acceptance and find a deeper kind of spiritual foundation for doing so.
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